Central Banking on Climate with Dr. Margerita Topalli
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Summary
In this episode of The No Nonsense Sustainability Podcast, host Ildiko Almasi Simsic engages in a compelling discussion with Dr. Margerita Topalli from the Bank of Albania. The central topic revolves around Albania's ambitious plan to establish its first Green Taxonomy by 2027, a crucial step in building a green financial system from scratch.
The conversation delves into the intricacies of creating a green capital market in a country with no existing framework. Dr. Topalli explains the significance of adopting the EU taxonomy, the challenges of defining "green," and the role of technology in supporting implementation. The episode also explores the importance of collaboration among various stakeholders, including the central bank, government ministries, and international donors.
Key insights from the discussion highlight the necessity of a comprehensive approach to green finance, emphasizing the importance of capacity building, leveraging existing frameworks, and ensuring high-level institutional support. The episode provides a detailed look at the steps required to develop a sustainable financial ecosystem in Albania.
Highlights
Dr. Topalli discusses Albania's plan to establish a Green Taxonomy by 2027.
The role of EU directives in shaping Albania's green finance strategy.
Challenges of defining 'green' in the context of Albania's economy.
Importance of collaboration among central bank, ministries, and international donors.
Potential sectors for green investment, including solar energy and energy-efficient buildings.
The role of technology and data in supporting green finance initiatives.
Key takeaways
1. Albania aims to develop its first Green Taxonomy by 2027, aligning with EU standards.
2. Defining 'green' is complex and requires adaptation to local contexts and needs.
3. Collaboration among various stakeholders is crucial for building a green financial system.
4. Technology and data play a vital role in implementing and monitoring green finance initiatives.
Timestamped breakdown
0:22 — Introduction to Dr. Margerita Topalli: Dr. Topalli is introduced as the head of the macroeconomic division at the Bank of Albania.
1:03 — Albania's Green Finance Push: Discussion on the dual push for green finance due to EU accession and internal needs.
2:29 — Understanding Capital Markets for Green Bonds: Dr. Topalli explains capital markets and green bonds without jargon.
5:16 — Early Stages of Capital Market Development: Albania's financial system is bank-centric with shallow capital markets.
6:02 — Adapting EU Taxonomy for Albania: Efforts to adapt EU criteria to Albania's local context are underway.
8:11 — Sovereign Green Bond Prospects: Plans for Albania's first sovereign green bond by 2026 or 2027.
10:18 — National Determined Contributions: Albania's commitment to reducing CO2 emissions by 20.9% by 2030.
13:06 — Building Capacity for Green Finance: Capacity building within the Bank of Albania began in 2020.
18:03 — Green Bond Menu for Albania: Potential sectors for green investment include solar energy and energy-efficient buildings.
26:08 — Role of Technology in Green Finance: Discussion on the importance of data and technology in supporting green finance.
32:11 — Four Pillars of Green Bond Market Development: Dr. Topalli outlines the four main pillars needed to build a green bond market.
39:00 — Lessons Learned in Green Finance Development: Insights into capacity building and leveraging existing frameworks.
Edited transcript
Welcome back to the No Nonsense Sustainability podcast. I'm your host, Ilik Kamashi Simik, and today we're discussing central banking and building green markets for sustainable finance.
My guest today is Dr. Margarita Topali, the head of the macroeconomic division at the Bank of Albania, who's also a visiting fellow at LS's Grandanthm Institute, bringing a unique blend of sustainable finance, climate finance, and central banking experience. Welcome to the show, Margarita.
Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. So today we will be talking about Albania specifically and building a market to adopt the EU taxonomy. To set the scene, is it more of a push in light of the potential EU accession or is it just something that makes financial sense?
Well, in fact, it also it's both of them. I would say it's also a push of the EU because we are in UX session. So of course we have some homeworks to do that we need to adopt some directives and the taxonomy is one of them. Disclosure is another one and also benchmarking. So of course that is one of the pushes but also it is one push that it's needed from inside. So it comes from inside. We need to have safe financial stability. We need to safeguard it. We need to have resilient and sustainable financial sector. So all this was also important from the perspective. It can't go alone. So the push I would say comes from all sides. The UX session of course process gives us a clear road map and urgency and also international donors in fact I would say and investors provide some support but also some pressure they want to invest here but only if we have some solid pipelines and oversight for green projects and of course ourselves at the central bank we are convinced that integrated climate into finance is simply part of modernizing our economy. So I would say that all these drivers align and it creates a strong momentum but of course you have to create the capital market for green bonds and that's the topic of today's discussion. So we're now going to go into the buzzword battle where I have both the buzzer and I'm going to ask you to explain what capital markets for green bonds mean in 60 seconds without using a buzz word or a jargon.
Okay, I'll try. [laughter] So I would say that a capital market is just a place where savings and investments meet. So I would think of it as a big marketplace for money where we have on one side people or institutions who with money that they want to invest. It can be pension funds, banks or individuals. And on the other side we have those who need money in order to grow. it can be companies or governments. So in capital markets they meet through instruments like bonds or stocks. And now what is the grain bond? It's a type of bond basically a loan in the form of a security where the money that is raised it needs to specifically be used to fund environmental friendly projects. Imagine for the case of Albania if a government wants to invest to raise money and promise to use it for something green. Well, let's say like solar panel for example, solar farm. So they issue a bond which is labeled green and investors who care about climate can buy it knowing that it supports a green project. For Alina it's I would say it's a big deal because it can attract new investors and also fund specific climate goals. So it bring both capital but also credibility and I would say that a green bond is just like a badge of confidence that it tells investors that the project meets certain standards and certain criterias and of course it will transparently be reported on. I hope I did it in 60 seconds.
No, you you did very well. But so that means that if you're building this this market for these green bonds that it currently doesn't exist in Albania, are there variations of green bonds, social bonds, maybe through some of the private sector that is currently in place in Albania? No. In fact, in Albania, we are at the early stages of developing the capital market. Albania's financial system is bankentric and the capital markets are shallow. So banks made almost all the loans and there were very few corporate bonds or stock offerings. So when we say building capital market from scratch, we mean exactly creating those kind of mechanism like the bond market where previously most financing was just done by bank loans. But of course to do that we need to create the framework. We need to have the policies there and that it's what we are doing right now in fact and we are building it in following four main pillars. First of all because we need to adapt the U taxonomy for Albania as we discussed a little bit earlier. Of course, it's not necessary to build everything from scratch. We don't need to reinvent the wheel, but we do need to adapt the system to our local context. We as the central bank of Albania, we are leading this process in collaboration with the help of EIBs and their experts which are helping us drafting the national green taxonomy. And this means reviewing all EU criterias for different green projects and seeing what is acceptable or what does fit in aian context. because some sectors it may be not relevant for our country. So we need to adapt it into our context and of course we need also we need to define what counts as green in different projects in our case. It can help boost investor trust that these projects are legitim. So I think this will help also channel money into green projects.
Then secondly the we need to align with the chapter 9 which is financial services the EU directive on sustainable finance and we together the central bank together with the Albanian financial supervisory authority is calling for creating into their their strategy a green bond standard which is also aligned with EU practices. The idea is that it ensures that any green bond meets strict criteria that means that the use of proceeds must be green. No significant harm to end up to other goals and reporting an external verification is required. That means that if Albania issues a bond under this standard, it commits to things like pushing how proceeds are used, what a green bond will be what a green bond and impact to environmental it will have and also the independent verification. I would say that honestly we still don't have an sovereign green bond but the ministry of finance which is the institution that will issue the first sovereign green bond which is basically where the money is marked for green projects. So they are working on it and I don't think that it will be in the long future. I hope that in 26 or maybe 27 it can be a reality and I think that this will also be very important for Albania because it will help as we said channel money to channel money into green projects. So I think that this big four streams like taxonomy, data also data because disclosure is very important. It's one of them and also lastly I would say not only preparing the sovereign green bond because of course if we don't have this market infrastructure and the rules in place then it's one thing to talk about issue but then it won't work but also coordination among the whole institutions. So we are not alone into that. We need to have central bank, the Albanian financial authority, the ministry of finance that will issue but also ministry of environment which is responsible for climate policies and also the banks the Albanian Association of Banks because if we want to to meet the NDCs and the the climate commitments
NDC what is the NDC? and national determined contributions the national determined because each country has a national determined contribution which is committed to the UNF triple C in the case of Albania we are committed to reduce the CO2 emissions for about 20.9% until 2030. So if we want to do that of course there is a lot of money which is needed and the private sector it's essential. It's a whole ecoss ecosystem that we are developing. It's not just one of the piece. It cannot work alone.
Yeah. So I understand that the the central bank is leading on this with the ministry of finance which makes sense since you're building a capital market. You briefly mentioned the ministry of environment. Do you have other sustainability experts with you who can help you interpret these green initiatives and translate it to the national sort of context? In fact, for the EU taxonomy, we are working as I said the central bank has a cooperation with the European Investment Bank and they have offered us some advisory support which are helping us transpose the EU taxonomy into the national context. To do that we have within the central bank created a working group an interdep departmental working group. We have also created a ESG committed which is each of the central each of the banks commercial banks into the financial sector in Albania has their own representative. Then we have representative from Ministry of Environment, representative from Ministry of Finance, representative from Albanian Financial Supervisory Authority, from Ministry of Agriculture, from Ministry of Energy and Infrastructure because you need in order to develop a taxonomy, you need to have a clear government structure and we are starting with the with a standing committee which are high level representative from these institutions that I mentioned. Then is the technical the experts from the EIB which are helping us draft it and also the technical experts from each for for each sector that we want to include into the taxonomy but also the civil society the the academy. So we tried to have all the relevant stakeholders included in this. We are hoping to have a first draft by the end of 26 and of course then it will be for public consultations because we need to we are aiming to align everything by by 2027
and just just for context and reference how long has it been since you started working on this program? Because I know you just mentioned that perhaps first draft will be ready in a year's time. How long does it take to get to that first draft?
Um, honestly, we haven't I would say that we have start early working on the green finance because for for example, I will take the case of the central bank of Albania. We are part of the NGFS, the network for green in the financial system since 2020, which is the network of central banks and the supervisory authorities. And we were lucky because we saw that awareness was lacking early. So we start building capacities first within the bank because you know for a central banker we weren't used a lot with climate models, climate impact, seeing all the transmission channels seeing how we could integrate it into our mandate and so we started early working on developing the capacities within our bank. Then in collaboration with the World Bank, we developed a green strategy. It's a medium-term one but with clear action plan and a clear timeline. It helped us a lot because it we produced a lot of important products starting from a green dashboard which is just a dashboard which integrates climate indicators, real economy indicators and financial sector indicators. And this is this was for us to help us understand where the hot spots were and how exposed was the banking sector towards climate risks. Secondly, we did an exposure analysis. So the result was pretty shocking because it shows that more than half of the loans were toward sectors which are exposed to climate risks. Okay. For example, for example, it can be transport, construction. Agriculture is another sector, but not the banking sector. It's not exposed to agriculture because in Albania the loans toward agriculture even though it's very important sector for the economy, but it's less than 2%. So even though agriculture was once we did the stress test it shows that it was the one that was mostly impacted but the banking sector wasn't exposed to it. The banking sector was mainly exposed to construction and also to transport and we did also the stress testing which is trying to quantify the impact that it can impact the banking sector and we did it only for transition risks because
what are those transition risks? the transition risk or the risk that the economy and the financial sector has once you are moving toward a lowcarbon economy. So it's the cost that they will pay and the transition and for the transition risk maybe because also Albania is highly based on hydro power for electricity production and also the national determined contributions are moderate. So they are modest. We don't need to work to invest a lot on decarbonization. We are lucky in that aspect. So the transition risks were for the banking for the banking sector were totally manageable and it was a totally resilient system that we have in place. Nevertheless, I should say that Albania is even though it doesn't emit but it's we know that climate change is not fair. So yes, unfortunately we are one of the countries which is mostly exposed towards physical risks and especially to extreme weather events like floods and wildfires. So we need to be prepared for this because being also a small economy you cannot you cannot you need to be prepared for everything. You cannot risk to have any any surprises that can lead to a crisis.
So over these past five years you've been through assessments, data gathering, stress test more like scoping, understanding what to do. Currently, as you stand, what is that sort of green bond menu in terms of sectors and industries that will most likely be features and prioritized in this taxonomy? In fact, Albania's great priorities, I think that it would touch many sectors. I will start with the first one, which I think is the big one. it's solar energy because as I said Albania is highly based on hydro power but being also risk towards drones it can have a huge impact. So we need to prepare ourself and diversify the renewable energy and solar is definitely at the top of our green menu. Albania has abundant sunshine especially in summer and
lucky you. Yeah, [laughter] that's true. And in fact we have already seen a lot of interest also from international investors in solar projects. We have last year in 2024 we had the country's first utility solar solar scale park which was in Caravasta.
I worked on that. I've been there. Really? [laughter] Yeah. That's that's great. So you know that that it's a huge I think it was a huge investment but also it showed that we are so the solar investment is very attractive and I think it's also straightward straightforward project. So I think
and I think yeah I think it was one of the it was the biggest solar project in the Balkcans or something. Exactly. It's if I'm not mistaken around 140 megawatts if I'm not mistaken and begin operations in 24. We had another one in 2025 that came online in Spala. But it shows that I think that they are shovel ready. So the regulatory framework is in place some chanders that are already completed. So I would go with that as the top of the menu on green. Another thing that I would mention and maybe put it not as the top but in the middle somewhere, it's also the energy efficiency building because as you may know here in Albania, in fact, the building stock is pretty old and not very energy efficiency, meaning that we have a waste a lot of electricity in heating, in cooling And that means that also we are paying a high amount in electricity bills. So it would help save people money on electricity bill if we can benefit from some insulation or better windows or even LED lighting. suggest some of them I say it in the I wouldn't put it in the top because even though that I think that it's very important but they are small projects so I think that to fund them we would need via a green bond at least we would need to have a more aggregated approach
I don't know yeah in one of you know we we worked together at the council of Europe development bank and they had a number of loans even on a municipal level for like energy efficiency measures in public sector buildings. So would it be something similar to that where you provide a loan to maybe here for private homeowners or for local governments so they could in insert this insulation in the buildings? I think it would be the great idea to start with municipalities bundling projects together. I think that's what can be a realistic because you know alone we have small projects we have even loans that banks are issuing in we even if with guarantee with credit guarantees but in order to have it we need to have a large scale retrofit program which I think it needs you know better than me on that but I think it needs more work in terms of organization ation and also I think it will be a high priority because we need to meet the EU standards and climate goals and I note that we are issuing a regulation because starting from 2026 all the new buildings and or at least major renovations must meet the zero emission standards and use also renewables like solar or whatever. So I think it will be a big push that will drive demand for green building solutions. I would also mention one which is not what people think firstly green bonds but I think that as I mentioned as we are highly exposed towards physical risks I would say that climate adaptation it's important. So it can be efficient irrigation, climate smart agriculture. Because for example in the case of Albania, not only they are not only agriculture is a very important part of our economy, but also a lot of our canels, irrigation canals are old or not even in use. So I would say it's also the the sector which is mostly climate sensitive with summers getting colder and drier. So I think green financing can fund also projects to install smart watering systems or rehabilitation irrigation channels. And what about the push to green transportation, electric vehicles for the private sector and also electric buses for public transportation. Regarding electric buses and clean transport, of course, this is also another option. In fact, in Tana we and in big cities like like the our capital where also the air pollution is pretty high. So we are looking to improve our public transport and we are hoping that instead of diesel buses to have electric buses or other zero emission transit. I think that the city can issue a green bond or at least try to loan to buy some flea buses or even charging stations. But I think that it's not that easily to do because it's important to have I believe it requires coordination within the city authorities. For example, taking the case of of Tana, I think that it needs to to plan a procurement. We need to have the adapt infrastructure, the charging infrastructure. So I would think of this in the next couple of years. Think I know that this is an idea which especially here in tan it's being discussed but I think that it may need some visibility study. So, ebuses or even like bicycle lanes network is definitely on the main menu, but I would put it in the next couple of years. Okay. And you mentioned that as part of the World Bank consultancy, you developed this green dashboard. So clearly having the data informing decisions, having the technology infrastructure to support and measure is very important. of course is very important and we did start early in fact with datas with digital tools and the our green dashboard which is already in development in bank of Albania we are working on improving data collection of course but it shows that it's feasible I would say that even though it sound a little bit abstract I think it's very important because digital tools and it can be monitoring ing systems, data platforms, even smart grids like investment to manage the electricity demand more efficiently. I think that they would help a lot on enabling sustainability. For example, a digital platform, if we can track data, climate data like our green dashboard, of course, it needs to be enhanced. It needs to be more automatic and it needs to expand the national level not only for the banking sector not only for the central bank but it needs to integrate datas and information from different ministries. We are also considering some fintech solutions that can even encourage green behavior or even digital investments that help providing automation and data. I believe that for this kind of broad platforms it's not it's a little bit early but they are recognized as an important need and we need to have registries on all the emissions that the Albania like a country is having like an registry on energy efficiency or data portal on emissions or this could be just some at least for my perspective so wishing list and this might not be be what a green bond direct directly can fund us since we know that bond stands to find more physical projects but I think that they are an important piece of a puzzle that of course donors can help and we are discussing at the central bank with some donors to see if we could have some help to automate this green dashboard and also to fill it and be more because we saw that there were a lot of data that were missing. So we need to bridge those gap being that with service but also with taking information as I said from various sources and different ministries and stakeholders.
Yeah. No, I think you will also have reporting requirements to the EU once this whole system is set up and clearly tracking what you're doing and how that compares to what you set out to do will be an important part of this reporting. I believe that in the next 5 years technology and automation will play a growing role. In fact, we would need to automate climate risk reporting. banks that could use this fintech tools to automatically measure the carbon footprint of their loan portfolio. Instead of doing it with manual estimation in Excel, we can use subt supervisory technology at the central bank. We might use AI to scan all the banks loan books and also it can help us flag climate risks. So even platforms using blockchain or other tech might emerge for trading green credits once we are also part of the EU or even verifying green claims or tracking renewable energy production for each kind of project. I believe that these things are being ex explored. Of course globally we're are more advanced that here we are mostly keeping an eye on them. But I believe that at the long term automation can lower the cost of compliance. So if we integrate this climate data reporting to our regular financial reporting via softwares banks would wouldn't find it as a burden. No, I mean you're talking to the converted. Yeah, but [laughter] but yeah, we are also it's a little bit early honestly. I I see we are we have started talking also in our central bank even in the credit registry to include some soup tech and but still as there are huge investments that are needed it's still at the beginning but of course I think that it will be something that will be in the next few years that needs to be done so we cannot escape ex escape it [laughter] Yeah, we'll see. Hopefully hopefully I hope to see some technology deployed for sustainability reporting and collecting data, automating some of these dashboards because the the value is really seeing the data together and humans interpreting it and making decisions and not going into research mode manually collecting. Exactly. And also the error will be much lower. So it's it's important I think but returning back to the four pillars that you were talking about what does it take to build a capital market for green bonds. So yeah I I said from the beginning so it's it's one thing if we issue a green bond but if we don't have the whole market infrastructure or the rules that are needed it wouldn't work. So the big four pillars that I was talking about was first taxonomy. This is also because we need to align with the EU taxonomy and there are several criterias that we need to match. U taxonomy being one of them. So the taxonomy is basically the rules of the game. The taxonomy is what it's like a dictionary like clear definitions of what is considered green. And I think this is very important because if we have our taxonomy in place then any green bond which is issued here in Albania can clearly claim which taxonomy criteria he makes. So I believe that it will boost a lot of investors trust that our projects are legitimately green. So this is one second I forgot to say earlier it's also data and the disclosure gas that we were talking so we talked about the green dashboard but on disclosures we would also encourage companies to disclose climate related information because part of our we at the bank of Albania we have issued a guideline it's principlebased one but it's a guideline with supervisory expectations, how they manage climate risk, how they have integrated into their business model, into their governance, into their strategy because we want banks to start reporting on their exposure to climate risk. In this way they can also start collecting data from their clients and we know that eventually the EU rules like also the CSRD the corporate corporate sustainability reporting directive will kick in. So we are nudging our financial sector to start preparing for that kind of level of transparency and I honestly believe that having good data and disclosures it will build credibility and I think that it also shows that we are serious about measuring impacts and we are not just talking about them but we have start to have real measuring impacts and real measuring of the risk that will happen. So I believe that this is crucial. Then it's the ministry of finance that will issue it. Basically government bond where the money are earmarked for green projects. This involves identifying portfolio of green projects. We discussed that we have some potential pipelines, some green projects, the green menu that we've discussed being that energy effusion buildings or renewable energy like solar and ensure that this kind of projects meet the standards and that's why we need the taxonomy so they can have it as a benchmark as where they see if the standards are met and then setting up of course the reporting framework. work and they need to have this whole green bond framework document prepared. So even taking an external reviewer to issue a second party opinion in order to certify its screen and as I said it would attract it would attract also investors, foreigner investors which I believe that for Albania is very important and we know that there are a lot of money that wants abroad internationally that are aiming to be invest in green projects. So this can be also an option for Albania to attract this kind of investments. And then lastly, it's all the ecosystem that needs to work together to collaborate together. We need to collaborate and to coordinate also among the regulators, banks, ministries because it's not just one institution that will build the whole market. We need to have all in working together and collaborating together.
Yeah. And in terms of iterating, so let's say the tonomy goes live, the first green bond is issued. I imagine it will be relatively challenging to change that taxonomy because it would have to be co like coinciding with the EU level updates or you know it would require input from a lot of different stakeholders. Yeah, I think that the taxonomy as in the EU it needs to be a lively document. So it's not something settle stone and we will approach the we will take the same approach but of course you cannot do it every year. So it can be once in every five years. I believe this was at least what we were discussing in our first meeting that we have with the whole inter institutional working group and we were discussing how often we need to to update this taxonomy. So I think that this working group needs to be to continuously work and to continuously be active. So in any case if there is something that needs some some changes or adaptation it can have the vote from the from the standing committee that we'll that we have created but still it always needs to go in process of public consultation. So as we are seeing also in the EU these are something that takes time. So we will not aim for something to do it very oftenly but at least once in every 5 years or we'll see for the moment because we are aiming to be part of the EU by 2030. So we are hoping we'll not need to change it once we have it. [laughter]
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. But let's see. We never know. [laughter] You've obviously been at the forefront of creating this market and learning from other countries whether that's in the east or the west. Based on your research, what were the sort of initiatives that are working well and what are the aspects that have not worked so well?
Okay. So yeah I would start the as it's a whole process we have learned some lessons and I will start with the capacity building first of all as I said we started earlier so we were lucky to understand that the awareness was lacking and was very low so we needed to start preparing ourselves and also we worked then with the banking sector because and financial sector which are under the mandate of the bank of Albania and then we expanded it even more but you can this is something that you cannot skip it at all. You need people to know to understand why this matters and how they can manage it. So this is one this is the first one that I would say. Secondly, at the beginning we were we were aiming to have some datas that were perfect or at least that were more than we were having. So I believe that gathering everything perfectly be and waiting for it before moving it's not something that you don't wait to have the perfect data. I think that you can start and then you can learn during the way how you can gradually fill the gaps. So don't wait for any perfect data or any perfect micro modeling with climate integrated. You start and then things can add during the way and improve over time. Of course another important thing that we did in our case is that we leverage existing frameworks. So we touch the U taxonomy in fact we are using the U taxonomy we are just we are not in re reinventing it but we are adapting it to our local context. We became part of the NGFS so we are using some of their scenarios for our analysis. We also for example we are of course we are following very carefully ECB the European banking authority what they are issuing as guidelines and we kept their guideline we adapted to in our context and then we issued this principlebased guideline for the banking sector for with supervisory expectations and the collaboration with international institutions was important and crucial in our case the collaboration with the World Bank as I mentioned with the European investment bank. But lastly and I think this is also very important is that you need to have the support from the top of your institution. In the case of the central bank, we had the support of the governor, of the other administrators, but also the government ministries are publicly endorsing the green initiatives. And honestly, I think that you need that buy in because cross agency coordination, it's not it doesn't always work great if you don't have the high level support. As for the things that didn't work, I would say in the case of Albania being a small market, it's not like it's a huge scale mismatch if you compare with the EU markets because in our case the same institutions or at least a few institutions needs to wear many hats. So it's
we cannot copy exactly what the market infrastructure in France for example or in Germany you need to scale solutions apparently so it's not that easy regulatory overload we know the EU is rolling out very complex sustainability disclosure rules and requirements so we are trying to enforce all of them but of course we need to sequence things. So we have started with simpler guidelines with principal based guidelines and we will gradually move towards full compliance with the EU and capacity builds. So we learned that from talking to our peers. We don't need to flood the market with regulation that nobody honestly it's ready to comply with.
Yeah. Thank you for being here with me today, Margarita. I hope to have you back once the tuxonomy is live and the first green bonds are issued. and I hope to have a followup of this conversation to see what all this work has led to and and how it's actually getting implemented.
Thank you so much Indigo for having me. Of course, it's a pleasure and it's also a big challenge that it's in front of us but an exciting one. So, I'll be happy to come back and say how it went lively hopefully soon hopefully in one year. Thank you. And thank you for being with us today. We'll be back with more next time.
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