Community Engagement Insights with Paul Lawrence
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Summary
In the inaugural episode of The No Nonsense Sustainability Podcast, host Ildiko Almasi Simsic welcomes Paul Lawrence, a senior social advisor, to discuss the intricacies of community engagement. The episode delves into the often misunderstood concept of "the community" and how organizations can effectively engage with various stakeholders. Lawrence shares his insights on the importance of listening and understanding the diverse opinions within a community, highlighting the challenges of defining community in the context of ESG reporting.
Throughout the conversation, Lawrence emphasizes the need for genuine engagement over superficial public relations efforts. He discusses the pitfalls of using generic stakeholder engagement plans and the importance of tailoring these plans to the specific context of a project. The episode also explores the impact of social media on community dynamics and the challenges organizations face in addressing vocal minorities while considering the silent majority.
The discussion concludes with practical advice on how organizations can improve their community engagement strategies. Lawrence advocates for a more nuanced understanding of community dynamics, encouraging businesses to listen actively and respond appropriately to community concerns. The episode offers valuable insights for organizations looking to enhance their social performance and build trust with their stakeholders.
Highlights
Paul Lawrence discusses the complexity of defining 'the community' in engagement efforts.
The episode critiques the use of buzzwords in sustainability and ESG reporting.
Lawrence shares personal experiences of being an affected community member.
The importance of genuine listening in community engagement is emphasized.
Social media's role in shaping community dynamics is explored.
Differences between community engagement and public relations are highlighted.
Challenges of addressing vocal minorities versus the silent majority are discussed.
Key takeaways
1. Community engagement requires understanding diverse opinions and avoiding one-size-fits-all approaches.
2. Genuine listening is crucial for effective stakeholder engagement, beyond just ticking boxes.
3. Social media can amplify vocal minorities, complicating engagement efforts.
4. Organizations should differentiate between public relations and true community engagement.
5. Tailored stakeholder plans are more effective than generic, copy-paste solutions.
6. Defining 'the community' contextually is essential for meaningful engagement.
Timestamped breakdown
00:00 — Introduction to the Podcast: Ildiko Almasi Simsic introduces the podcast and welcomes guest Paul Lawrence.
00:37 — Role of a Social Performance Consultant: Paul Lawrence explains his work in simplifying business interactions with communities.
02:00 — Understanding Community Engagement: Discussion on what community engagement truly means beyond buzzwords.
06:15 — The Airplane Metaphor: Lawrence uses an airplane metaphor to explain effective listening in engagement.
08:56 — Stakeholder Engagement Plans: Explanation of the purpose and design of stakeholder engagement plans.
12:00 — ESG Reporting Challenges: Critique of how ESG reporting often misses the point of real engagement.
16:00 — Personal Experience as an Affected Person: Lawrence shares his experiences dealing with community engagement from the other side.
25:45 — Impact of Social Media: Discussion on how social media changes the dynamics of community engagement.
29:30 — Engagement vs. Public Relations: Exploration of the differences between genuine engagement and public relations.
31:50 — Defining 'The Community': Concluding thoughts on the importance of context in defining the community.
Edited transcript
Welcome to the non nonsense sustainability podcast. I'm IL Kamisimick and today we're covering community engagement. My guest today is Paul Lawrence, senior social advisor.
Paul, welcome to the show. Hello. I'm very glad to be here. Nice to see you. To kick things off, if people wanted to find out more about what you do in one simple sentence, what would you say? I would say I am a consultant in the field of social performance. And I would say that the one thing I would want them to know about that is that it's really simple. Basically, the interest I have in working in that field is to try to make things simpler in the world of the way that business interacts with people and communities and everybody who's affected by business. Well, you're in a perfect spot for that.
Today, we're discussing one of our joint pet peeve, the community engagement. And indeed, who's exactly the community? So, let me start off by some quotes from sustainability reports. We strive to co-create holistic pathways for inclusive listening. Our priorities, approaches, and practices are aligned with the expectations of internal and external stakeholders. Not bad. I probably should just buzz myself already. Sure, but I don't think you can buzz a statement that comes from somebody else's sustainability report. I see your point. They're not bad in principle. Probably my favorite is the community engagement report where they say they did 87 activities supporting vulnerable people, whatever that means. So if you had to explain community engagement in 60 seconds without using a buzzword, making sure that you define who the community is, like how would you go about it?
Two questions there. So first I would say the engagement bit is really about the word of listening. And then if I could buzz, I wouldn't buzz because I'm hyper sensitive to the format of this podcast. I would say the buzzword is community because I think that is often the biggest misunderstanding. If you say the community, I don't know any communities where I've worked or lived that is sort of encapsulated by one opinion or one idea or you know there's various people. So for me even the word community I won't buzz it yet because I think it's loud on the microphone. I think the word community itself is a little bit of a buzzword that people all assume they know what it means, but the fact is communities are not of one opinion. And that I think is the biggest challenge in doing engagement and particularly community engagement because you look outside, if you go to anywhere that you've ever worked, it's very hard to narrow it down to what the community thinks.
Yeah. Exactly. And if I had to explain it, I would also say we need to define the community in the context because in our work in social performance bas you can't use that phrase but you need a phrase to say what you do. So I think we have to be a little bit patient with ourselves. So we define the community in the context of our project or our client. So when we refer to this group of people, that's the good way to overcome the community buzzword. So this group of people, we just define them as people who are directly affected by our project. And even then we go one step further and defined the subgroups like some people might be affected by certain aspects, others by other aspects. Sure. And then in that context for this smaller group of people we designed we designed a way to share information and ask for feedback. But when we look at community in like the ESG reporting sense, it's not well defined. And that's why Yeah. So, I think I really like the format of this podcast because I think even the format of if you went into a meeting with where I live and said ESG reporting, no one would know what you were talking about. So, that even that language of like what what are we talking about? They see a construction site, a new energy project, a way the road is blocked, you know, they're much simpler things. I mean, I think we get in this world of reporting and ESG and I think we forget really what we're talking about is are people being listened to or not? And I think that sounds easy to understand. Everybody kind of knows what it means, but it just feels differently and I think we have to be careful of this idea of ESG reporting and sustainability and stakeholder engagement to really think about what it is we mean in practice.
Yeah. And who are the people who should be listened to and by who? No, that's right. Because that's you know when we when we're discussing this like broader sustainability industry as I said for us it's pretty obvious like we look on the map who are nearby the project and so that that's the people but under the ESG framework and that's the I guess the confusion here and that's why it's become a pet peeve of mine. Community is everybody and nobody. So let's say you have a you have a business here in Canary Warf. Who is your community? Everybody who lives here or works here. Yeah. As I said, I mean I think when you're in a big city, it's different. I want to go back to when you when you ask me a little bit about what engagement was and what how I would describe it in one word. I say the word listening. And I think that one of the best metaphors I try to give to people is the way you when you when you feel listened to, when you feel heard is a scenario that I feel oftentimes and I relate to sort of being on a plane and I relate to engagement or listening being on a plane. I don't like flying myself. So, I think about the way I personally feel when I come onto a plane and if nobody gives you any information, you feel a little bit stressed. But when you have a pilot come on and he says, "This is my name. I'm here to protect your health and safety. This is when I'll talk to you throughout the flight. This is the weather." You're getting information. You're feeling like, "Ah, somebody is here to listen to me. There's a whole team of people here who are concerned about my well-being. If I have a question, I can check in with them." I physically feel the way I relax when that happens. And that's what I try to think of when I work on a report or a formal event on a big project. You know, when people feel like they're listened to and they have a way to communicate and they know who they can communicate with, you have the basics of making everybody feel relaxed. That's why I think it just you think of scenarios that are outside of ESG reporting or formal sort of, you know, project development or we're doing, you know, just people want to feel listened to and then if they have a problem, they know who to go to and I that's the one I think is really helpful in thinking about simplifying the work of community engagement or social performance in in our field.
Okay, let me challenge you on this a little because when you say listening and giving them the platform or the opinion or the opportunity to share their views, that does kind of imply that it matters because you know like you get on the plane, the pilot is not asking you how he should drive the plane. So yeah, he's communicating information to you, but from your perspective, there's no expectation that anything you would say or, oh, I want to fly over Rome to see the view. I love that you've challenged me on this because I've often used this metaphor and no one's challenged me back. This is great because I've never quite thought through it. This is a great example. The pilot would be like the CEO of a mining company or the CEO of a solar company or a big construction project. They're not going to be the ones talking. But even that team, I'm never going to meet the pilot. So, I'm not expecting to meet him. But what that CEO has done is he's told me the designated person who's in charge of my well-being, my safety and comfort during the flight and I can see that person walking back and forth and that person does want to hear from me. That that's, you know, we use we use tools like a stakeholder engagement plan and we nominate people called Well, I said it's a tool. That is the document we use to have a company or a project describe what's going to happen. How is the company or project going to listen to people? Whether that's a solar plant in Albania or whether it's a big construction project in Turkey or you know something that you see the thing I always like to think are the projects in my community like the construction project across from my house. You know I hear that construction I have to deal with their waste every day. like, have the people running that project given me a plan or information over who's in charge? If I have a problem, who do I contact? That's the way I kind of see it. It's like that's what our stakeholder engagement plan is really trying to do is to say not I'm the CEO. I'm going to come to your house and I'm going to ask you what you think, but here's the person. This is the person's name. And you're making it clear for people. you're making it feel like if they do have a question that that that you know you know how to ask it and you're going to be listened to and I think that's a fundamental building block of what we need to do when we do this work. The tool we use is called a stakeholder engagement plan. So that's why I use that term. But and then the other point about the what is communicated and how often and how. Sure. And of course I am aware I like we designed the same plans where at the meetings where the emotions run high and the people share their fears or concerns. Sure. But it's for for someone who doesn't operate within the framework of this like IFI standard. I know bus like because there sorry I buzzed you for the word IFI because I think a lot of times when I think about community engagement nobody I know knows what an IFI an international financial institution is. When I when I when I think about this topic and the way it's applicable to my work at in working with big projects for IFIs or in that construction site across from my from my house I I'm thinking about the same principles but please go on.
Yeah. But what so my point was that there you have a set of requirements of what to communicate. That's right. and how often what you know like what's the level of of depth for the project information or these operational impact and you know anyone who's lived in a big city you had a neighbor constructing or mourning the lawn on Sunday and they never asked you they never even informed you that's right you didn't know when it will begin and how long it will last and even if they were listening to your complaints like not much really happened so I feel like this is the kind of example that demonstrates what community engagement in the ESG world is like I I I I think that's right and and and I think the the the short and un unsatisfying answer is that it depends and I think when I've tried to do this work before you know you have to think a little bit about the context the problem with a lot of the work that happens that I see or that sometimes I've done myself is you think that one sizefits-all. You're supposed to create something in the projects I work on called a stakeholder engagement plan. What do people do? They look for a stakeholder engagement plan online. They copy it. They don't think about the community. They don't think about their attitude, whether they're suspicious or trustworthy or they trust the the local company or the government. They're not thinking about that. They're like, "Oh, you need a plan. Let me give it to you." Do you know what I'm saying? It's a it's it's rather thinking that the the goal is, oh, I've created a plan. I've given people information. Therefore, I've done my work. Well, did they hear you? Were they satisfied? Uh, you know, you know, it's it's a little bit of B sort of saying, what kind of information do people want? You have to you almost have to sort of try it out and and figure it out to to answer that question you were just you were just talking about. But then when you say were they satisfied that does mean or kind of imply that whatever you communicate and however you listen should keep them happy. And we had plenty of projects where there was no amount of stakeholder engagement that could keep the people happy.
I I I think that that's right. But I think that the, you know, when I think about the problematic places I've worked and the problematic projects I've had, the point is to be able to really understand, you know, what people are saying. And I think the misunderstanding is you'll say, have you engaged? Have you communicated with people? And a CEO or a top manager or an engineer will say, yeah, we had a meeting. It was on this date. Here are the minutes. Here's the question. and here's my answer. And you look at that question and you look at that answer and you say, well, clearly you're didn't you didn't answer the question and their response indicates they didn't understand what you said. So maybe you need to go back and talk to them again. Do you know what I'm saying? It's it's it's a little bit about having that analytical effort to to to get further to find out whether they're really asking a qu maybe they didn't maybe they genuinely didn't understand. Maybe it wasn't recorded properly. when you're reading the minutes of of a certain meeting, you don't really know what happened. You you know what I'm saying? It's it's about human communication. Sometimes you have to say, "Here's my answer. Did I answer your question?" You know, a simple thing you do in a in a good facilitated meeting, but pretty rarely happens in big formal meetings or you know, contro, you know, difficult conversations. It's it's hard. And probably that's not the big formal meeting is not the right format. Absolutely. Because if we're bringing it back to like our own personal experience, not on the consultant side when you organize and you prepare, but on the other side when you're invited, I remember I was invited to discuss master plan in the area I lived in. And you know, I was part of the community, but I didn't necessarily feel like I'm part of the community. A lot of people we talked to in the neighborhood were like, "Yeah, we're not going to show up. Our opinion doesn't matter anyway. They're going to do what they're going to do." And yeah, like this really put things into perspective for me because I spent the previous 10 years designing these programs for these communities. So they show up and they have the access to the information and they feel a part of the decision making. Yeah. But then when I was on the other side, I was like, should I really go? Does it really matter if I show up? Yeah. And I know that you have your very personal experience going from practitioner to affected person.
I have been I have been a affected person a few times. I have to say it's it's interesting. And I sorry I threw out that example of the construction site across from my house because that was that was the the third one, but the others were were just being adjacent. they called them sort of neighbor households where you know there was a housing development. Uh the um the other one was you know another project near near my house which was another construction development. But it was difficult to to find out that basic information going back to my plane metaphor about who I would even talk to. In both of those cases um near my house uh it was the government. It wasn't anybody who was doing the project. there was nobody nominated and I had to actually push to get my opinion considered because I wasn't a neighbor, which is very common in in our projects, right? You sort of you draw a line around a a a construction site or a pipeline or a or or a big a big project and you say, well, those those people who are just neighbors to it are going to be affected. In my case, there was a real estate development that was going to affect traffic near my road and you know, I but I wasn't identified as a stakeholder. So, I had to kind of push to find out who I could speak to in the government and and when I finally did it, they didn't they weren't the decision makers. They were just sort of fill in the form, upload your information, and and that was it. And I said, "Well, is anybody going to get back to me?" And they're like, "No, no, no. That's the planners and the local the local government who they're going to take into consideration your concern about the traffic near your house, and then there'll be a decision." I was shocked. I I thought I mean I would get in big trouble if I did that on some of my projects. It was quite it was quite interesting to think about even you know we we e even even here in the UK you know it wasn't the nearly the kind of thought that went into the process as I try to do on some of the projects that I do in countries around the world and and some of the projects I work on. So it it was it was eye opening for me. But did it help that you knew what should happen? Could you like escalate? Because if it happens to someone who's never done this work, you might just be like, "Okay, I submit the form and then like that's it."
I I think I could have escalated, but that but I think that goes back to the issue of, you know, do you think it will be efficient? Is it really that important? And then I think the other question is, you know, if you don't really think you're talking to anybody and no one's listening to you, unless you're really affected or really going to be impacted, you know, you're you're not going to exert you're not going to put in the time. So I think in that case, I was just trying to get some basic feedback. What they were asking me, which is something I try to avoid in my in my professional work, was whether I was for or against a project. And I said, I'm neither for nor against the project. I'll be for or against it depending on how well you manage the traffic and whether I have lots of lorries coming in front of my house again. Of course, that person didn't have that information and wasn't going to be able to tell me. Now, in this case, we never got to the point of escalation because the project didn't go forward and I it never came to that. You know, maybe I would have if it had gone forward, but it was interesting to be in the process and be speaking to a bureaucrat who didn't give me his name, who just said, "This is what you have to do. Tell me your opinion, yes or no. And the other thing that I found super interesting, I had to put my address and I said on on the internet. And I said, I don't want, you know, with yes or no. And I said, I'm not telling you yes or no. I'm telling you that I'd like to get more information about how you're going to manage traffic that goes by my house. He said, no, that's not what we do. So, it was it was interesting. I mean it it's a bad example and it and and unfortunately as as a project affected person it never really mater you know developed because it didn't go forward but it was eye opening to me as to sort of the way it was thought about here in a local municipality with just a relatively simple real estate development and was there a community that that formed to jointly voice your opinion because we have that on our project. Uh no, no, no. And I and I think in this in this case, uh in both of those cases, uh one was that, you know, I I did do some own some of my my research myself. The the the first one was I was worried about flood risk and how a new real estate development might stop runoff. So I asked one of my environmental friends who knew a little bit about hydrogeeology whether it was a real risk. He told me it wasn't. But the point was is that I wasn't included in that first community that was identified because I didn't live adjacent to the housing development. And then the second thing was, you know, I did my I had to do my own research taking the documents that I got to figure out whether it was a real problem. And I I kind of figured it out myself. But so I didn't have to escalate in that situation. It's it's just interesting how for them too, it was a almost a box ticking exercise where they were informing the minimum people that they thought they needed to do, you know, and when somebody wanted to get more information, there wasn't really a means to to to do it. And I think about that all the time when I'm trying to advise clients who are doing doing really big mega projects abroad. So, it's interesting to think about. It's it's really interesting to be in that in that situation. And um there was a road project near my grandmother's village a few years ago and uh my cousin was the mayor of the village. So I had a conversation with him like what what's the status update and he said yeah they're just doing some assessments and uh cultural heritage and archae and like I knew exactly what's going on and I was able to provide him with like a sort of a timeline or when is a good time to share opinions or did he know roughly because you do have that two public hearings in the the legislation but than knowing that you can put in like complaints or ask more questions. It's uh very valuable information.
NOTES FROM THE HOST:
TNNSP S01 EP01 - Who is the Community?
Ildiko Almasi Simsic
Aug 20, 2025
2 min read
The questions you need to ask before you claim you've consulted them.
When I first started working in sustainability, I thought “the community” was obvious. In E&S practice, it was the people living closest to the project site, the people who were affected by the projects, the ones you could point to on a map. But the longer I’ve worked in sustainability, the more I’ve realised how slippery that word is - and how dangerous it can be when we don’t stop to define it.
We love to say, “We consulted the community.” It sounds reassuring, like we’ve done our job. But often, what we really mean is that we spoke to a few visible people - usually men, often leaders, sometimes the ones easiest to reach. Everyone else becomes invisible. It might also mean that you designated your community as a set of customers (in the case of Lufthansa), or random people around your office building (local communities), without much thought on the people who might be adversely impacted by your operations. Of course Lufthansa would argue that their customers are directly affected I.e. if they don’t fly they miss meetings, holidays, family reunions. Which is true, but it would be a little more honest and transparent to talk about the African villages around operational facilities who have to live by the noise, dust, emissions and operational traffic.
Paul Lawrence, my guest on the podcast, said it bluntly: “Communities aren’t just the people in the room. They’re the people impacted - often in ways you haven’t imagined.” He’s right. But he is also an E&S expert, so of course he shares my views on the importance of defining who our community really is.
If it was so straightforward for E&S experts, I probably wouldn’t have decided to kick off Season 1 of The No Nonsense Sustainability Podcast with this topics. I’ve seen renewable energy projects define the “community” as the nearest village, while ignoring farmers who lost access to grazing routes. I’ve seen corporate consultations scheduled at 9am in council offices, excluding women with caregiving duties, shift workers, or anyone without a car. And I’ve seen projects that proudly present glossy engagement reports, only to face protests because the people who mattered most weren’t even at the table.
The truth is: defining “the community” is not straightforward. It shifts with the project, the geography, the risks. Sometimes it includes NGOs, regulators, even your fiercest critics. And it changes over time.
So before we say, “We’ve consulted the community,” I think we need to pause and ask ourselves three honest questions:
Have we really included all the voices that matter?
Did we make engagement accessible, or did we design it for our convenience?
Did the community actually shape outcomes, or did we just tell them what was already decided?
I’ve learned the hard way that if you skip these questions, you pay for it later - in lost trust, opposition, and projects that fall apart.
Getting it right isn’t easy. But it’s worth it. Because when you genuinely listen, when you broaden your definition of “community,” you uncover insights that make projects stronger and outcomes fairer.
And that, to me, is what no nonsense sustainability looks like.
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